It may be just two decades of formal diplomatic ties, but India and Israel have come a long way in cementing their relationship. In an interaction with the senior editorial staff of The Pioneer, Alon Ushpiz, the Israeli Ambassador, discusses ways to strengthen ties with India, along with issues ranging from the Syrian civil war to Iran and Palestine
The general perception here is that the India-Israel relationship is primarily about strategic, defence ties. Please tell us about the areas in which the two countries are working together.
As we are celebrating the 21st anniversary of our diplomatic ties, I must say it’s a unique relationship. It did not start as a normal one, but I think both of us — Indians and Israelis — are tremendously proud of what we have achieved in the past 21 years. I believe this is due to a lot of factors. The most important being the chemistry between Indians and Israelis, and believe me it’s a close one. The second thing that I find quite impressive is the ability of the two Governments — even before they had smooth diplomatic relations — to, first, define and understand the compatibility between needs and solutions on both sides, and, second, to be able to look beyond the immediate problems and challenges and assess the strategic issues that we have to and we should work together.
The two countries are today working together in six-seven fields. First is defence, followed by agriculture. Then comes the issue of civilian trade. In 2011, we had for the first time crossed $5 billion of trade which was fairly balanced. The year 2012 saw a bit decline, but we are in the right direction and we can take it in the course of three to five years from $5 billion to $10-15 billion. In the fourth position is internal security. It needs to be understood that India has its challenges and Israel has its own; Tel Aviv has its expertise and knowledge, and Delhi has its own. Whenever we have interactions with your people and these are intensive interactions, there are so many things we learn from Indians.
Then comes the issue of water conservation and desalinisation. Israeli innovation in this field comes from necessity. There are places in Israel where we have 8 mm of annual rainfall and India too has regions which often suffer from drought-like conditions and get extremely low rainfall. Here I would like to emphasise that we in Israel have, through technology, been able to enlarge the pie, the pie of water, whether it is through the cost-effective desalinisation process or recycling of drought water (75 per cent of our sewage water goes back to agriculture which is the highest figure in the world) or even water management. You can, thus, enlarge your pie of water. likewise, we can work closely in the field of energy as well.
If you look at all these projects we are trying to work together, I think at the core of each one of them is the concept of innovation. Our economy has moved from agriculture and small, medium-sized industries to service economy, which is primarily based on R&D and innovation. I, along with my colleagues in the embassy, spend quite some time with Indians who either do business or do innovation or study in one of these fields, and I must admit that I am quite impressed by the qualifications of these argumentative Indians and their hunger for improvement. So there is a whole scope of collaboration here.
As for agriculture, I think both in Israel and in India, it goes way beyond producing food. It is something that has a cultural meaning. Nevertheless, providing food to 1.2 billion people is a serious challenge. We have gone through something similar, not because of size but because of scarcity of resources. And we have been able to reach high levels of productivity in horticulture, dairy, poultry, fish, etc. And once again our ability to do these things are based not only on the proficiency and diligence of the Israeli farmer, which is something that India also has in abundance, but also on our ability to turn agriculture into a technology-oriented profession. Israel and India can work closely in this field. In fact, we have a three-year working plan in 10 States, based on which we will establish 29 centres of excellence. And the idea behind these centres is to introduce the Israeli agriculture technology in India. We don’t come here and say, “This is what we think you should do.” You come and tell us, “We think this is what we should do. Do you have the applicable technology for thisIJ” So we listen to your demands and if we have the technology, we bring it to India; and you Indians — Indian farmers, scientists, et al — do the adaptations. We do not do copy paste. Whatever can be done in the Negev, in the southern part of Israel, does not necessarily apply to Rajasthan, and certainly not to Tamil Nadu.
So, as of today, we are working in Haryana, Rajasthan, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra, Gujarat, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and Punjab. In many cases, each one of these States has two to five or even six centres and each centre is dedicated to one crop.
Iran remains a challenge for Israel. How do you plan to deal with the problemIJ
Iran is the number one strategic challenge that Israel is facing today. Its multi-layered nature makes it even more complicated. But if you look closely, you will find that the Iranian nuclear project — indeed, military-oriented — is not just an Israeli problem; it is an international problem, and its consequences would go way beyond Israel and its neighbourhood to other parts of Asia, Europe and even America. We, too, believe diplomacy is the best way to deal with something like this, but it’s not enough to stop there. One must go beyond diplomatic solutions. The Iranian nuclear project should be rolled back. The IAEA must get full access to Iran’s nuclear sites. In order to have diplomatic solutions, the international community has to create a toolbox designed to put pressure on Iran; these can be economic sanctions and political isolation, and frankly speaking, all options should be on the table. You need to have a universe of options on the table, including aggressive ones, because the probability for a diplomatic solution is on the decline. In this context, it is not enough to have only carrot. Stick is equally a necessary part of international diplomacy.
We don’t have even the slightest doubt that Iran has become the number one terrorist-supporting country in the world. I think Indians and Israelis have a deep understanding of what is terrorism and what should be done to contain it. Israelis and Indians were targeted together in 26/11 and I have some vivid memories of this horrific incident. Israelis and Indians were also targeted together on February 2, 2012, when agents of the Iranian Government tried to assassinate an Israeli diplomat in Delhi. Three Indians were injured. We don’t have the slightest doubt that this was the act of an Iranian agent — fully paid by the Iranian Government, fully planned by the Iranian Government, and fully dispatched here to do this by the Iranian Government. This is not about renegades, this is a Governmental operation. We, therefore, believe that an Iran that acquires nuclear weapons and is actively involved in terrorism is a big threat for the stability of West Asia, including the Gulf region.
Syriais another front which is causing a lot of tension across the world. What’s Israeli stand on the Syrian situationIJ
The second strategic challenge that we have to deal with in West Asia is what people call the Arab Spring. And I think in this framework the most outstanding issue right now is Syria. Israel does not have the slightest intention to intervene in what is going on in Syria, which is a civil war, although I think a foreign policy based on moral values cannot ignore the fact that this war has seen the death of more than 80,000 people, besides forcing a million others to take shelter in refugee camps.
There are, however, issues that have direct implications on Israeli security: First, Syria has one of the biggest stockpiles of chemical weapons. In the past two years, there has been a complete chaos and there are signs of the regime hardening its position against the rebels and its willingness to do anything in its fight against them, including the usage of chemical weapons. It’s an Israeli concern, but this is also an international concern and obligation to do everything to contain the crisis. Second, there is a whole range of weapons that the Syrians have or might have in the near future that we perceive as game-changers. And if these weapons are delivered to other actors in the region, to begin with Hezbollah, which is a terrorist outfit, we will do whatever we can to prevent this from happening. We are clear that we will not interfere in Syria’s civil war, but if someone out there thinks that he can deliver those weapons, then we will do anything to prevent this from happening.
Now, where is Syria headingIJ First of all, one should be careful in trying to predict events in West Asia. For good or bad, the region is extremely volatile, fluid and unpredictable by nature. Nevertheless, I think it would be tremendously overoptimistic to say that things are going to improve soon.
You have said that your intention is not to interfere, but your Defence Minister says that if the Russians supply the missiles then you will do whatever you feel is necessary, and going by Israel’s track record of walking the talk your interference seems quite possible...
First of all, I am happy that you take us seriously (laughs). But the statement of the Israeli Defence Minister says exactly what I have just described — the minute we will know that ‘game-changing’ weapons are going to be delivered to Hezbollah, we will do whatever it takes to prevent it. This is not interference in the Syrian civil war; this is Israeli’s attempt to secure its security interest. It’s a totally different thing.
Don’t you think that the Syrian crisis and the Shia-Sunni conflict have taken the attention away from the Israeli-Palestinian conflictIJ
look, I have been dealing with the region and specifically the Israeli-Palestinian peace process for many years. If you look methodically at the graph of attention, it has its ups and downs. And I don’t believe that the Israeli-Palestinian issue will go away so easily; this is here to stay. It is important that both sides cover some ground when it comes to conflict resolution. But it starts with one indispensable element, actually two: The recognition on both sides that this is about two states for two people; this recognition is well-accepted among the Israelis, but I am not sure whether the same is the case with the Palestinian side. Second, Israelis and Palestinians have to speak with each other directly. There are no external solutions; this is not about internationalisation, this is about the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Of late, economic crisis is creating a lot of trouble for Egypt, at a time when it is going through a transition in the political sphere. Israel had a good relationship with Egypt before the onset of the Arab Spring and the coming to power of the Islamists. Do you expect more trouble on this frontIJ
Once again, I think it is quite dangerous to predict things in West Asia. There is a reason why in the Bible one of our sages says that the ability to predict the future was given to the fools. It’s certainly applies to our neighbourhood. The Israel-Egypt relationship had been the cornerstone of a whole range of positive things that happened in West Asia in the last couple of decades since 1977. It’s the cornerstone of peace and stability in the region. It’s, therefore, important for us to have a stable, flourishing democratic Egypt as a partner.
You have identified Iran as the hotspot of international terrorism and sooner or later I think you and other countries may favour a military solution. How do you expect India to respond because it has deep-rooted cultural and economic ties with IranIJ Also, for us, Pakistan is the biggest threat.
For us it’s very simple: Terrorism is terrorism, is terrorism. You raised issues that relate to the Indian policies or the American policies, but I must remind you that I represent one Government. It sits in Jerusalem. I don’t think I have to refer to Indian policies. Indian policies are decided by the Indian Government which is elected by Indian citizens the same way Israeli policies are framed by Israeli Government.
Do you think there is a need for a much more concerted effort to crack down on terror camps in Pakistan and would Israel try to persuade America and other countries to act in the same manner the way you are acting against IranIJ
I don’t have the slightest doubt that terrorism is terrorism is terrorism, and I think we have proven it through the blood of our citizens. A terrorist-supporting country, it does not matter if it is Tehran or Islamabad, is a terrorist-supporting country. But it is not for us to come to India and tell Indians what they should do. You are a great civilisation, with more than 60 years of flourishing democracy, and this is for you to decide.
You have made a statement that Iran is emerging as the fountainhead of terror. I wonder how Iran being a Shia country, with a long bitter and bloody history of conflict with Sunnis and Sunni countries, has emerged as the fountainhead of terror and how have the Sunni terrorist organisations accepted the leadership of IraniansIJ
I think one should be very careful in creating the linkage, a deterministic linkage, between religion and terrorism. Religion has a important role in human lives; for example, I come from a culture where religion plays an important role even among the secular Israelis. I think Iran has done something which is a very extreme form of utilising religion in order to turn religion into the creator for vicious actions against other religions and within this framework they utilise their access to other terrorist organisations in financing, training and giving orders. Terrorism everywhere, but certainly in West Asia, is not a homogeneous phenomenon. It’s a mosaic of bad people, with different capabilities, and you have to deal with them constantly.
Isn’t Israel making it difficult for the Palestinians to come to the negotiating table because the only thing that seems to be coming in the way is the issue of settlementsIJ Why wouldn’t you halt the settlements for a while, and start the dialogue processIJ
I think it’s one of the biggest misperceptions of what is going on between us and the Palestinians in the past so many years. Settlements are not the only issue. There is the issue of Israeli security, and you cannot have a peaceful settlement unless you deal with Israel’s security needs because otherwise it’s not going to be sustainable. Then, there are other issues like water, environment, economic cooperation, Jerusalem, refugees, borders, etc.
We have said this several times in the past and I am reiterating it again that once we have a peace settlement, we will evacuate people. We take Israelis and uproot them from their homes, we move synagogues, we move graveyards, and we tell people to leave the older lives. We have done this in Gaza Strip where we asked people who were born there to pack their bags and move; we have done this in Sinai after the peace agreement with Egypt. We have done this in the Gaza Strip in recent times.
You have talked about a cost-effective desalinisation mechanism. We would be interested in knowing about this because desalinisation has not been seen as a viable option even for coastal cities like Chennai. When desalinisation becomes cost-effective, I am sure a lot of the problems of drinking water in southern India in particular can be resolved.
let me start by saying that I share your sentiment on the issue. I think it’s one of the most promising sectors for cooperation between India and Israel which is totally based on compatibility of needs and solutions. We look at water through a holistic perspective; it starts with desalination, moves to re-usage, goes to water management or treatment of non-revenue waters, and also touches upon water security... We have technology that I believe is cost-effective, but we still have to work on it. If you drop the amount of non-revenue water in India, obviously you will have a larger quantity of water and also a better quality of water. If you adopt some of our technological solutions when it comes to water-recycling (as I have said that 75 per cent of our agricultural water comes from sewage), obviously it has implications on your water pie.
Desalination is an excellent example; the biggest desalination plant in India is in Gujarat and is made by an Israeli company and which, I believe, is cost-effective. There are other plants in the west coast, including Tamil Nadu. There is a big Israeli company that is working in Rajasthan, Delhi (actually couple of them have projects in the Capital), and also in Bihar and Uttar Pradesh.
A lot of Indian companies are going to Israel. How are they performingIJ
This is something I cherish a lot. This is about partnership between tremendously talented people on both sides. It is the responsibility of the two Governments to facilitate these talented people to cooperate and develop good things together. And I think it would be a crime not to take advantage of the Israeli innovation and the Indian jugaad. We have to create a symphony of platforms and some of them are already working.