Dr Abbas Shoman, deputy Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar, the world's oldest surviving university and global centre of Islamic theology, talks about Muslim Brotherhood, terrorism, Middle East in turmoil, Islam and democracy, and related contentious issues, in a conversation that happened in Cairo
Al Azhar is the oldest Islamic seminary in the world, the seat of Sunni theology and the most respected interpreter of texts. It was founded in 970 by the Fatimids with a view to promoting theological scholarship and move with the times. Today, Al Azhar hosts the finest scholars of Islam, blends tradition with modernity, teaches secular subjects and preaches moderation in faith.
In mid-December, I met Abbas Shoman, deputy Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar, at his office in Cairo. It was the day after a suicide bomber affiliated to the Islamic State pulled the trigger inside a Coptic church in old Cairo. Twenty-five women and children died and scores were injured in the bombing. The previous Friday, a police checkpoint adjacent to a mosque near the Giza pyramids was bombed, killing six policemen.
The Egyptian security agencies suspect the Ikhwan ul-Muslimeen, the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the fountainhead of the violent radical Islam we see around the world today, of masterminding these bombings. The Ikhwan has taken to agitating against the state after its nominee Mohamed Morsi was dislodged from the President’s office following a popular uprising against the Muslim Brotherhood and its fanaticism.
We had an interesting discussion on the Muslim Brotherhood, radical Islam, the violence unleashed by Islamists in Egypt, Islam and democracy, and the challenges ahead for the Government headed by Gen Abdel Fattah Saeed Hussein Khalil el-Sisi, who is battling Islamist radicalism in all its manifestations.
The following are excerpts from our conversation:
There has been a spurt in Islamist violence, threatening to upset the Sisi Government’s efforts to steer Egypt through pretty rough and difficult times. How do you see the present situation unfoldingIJ
We welcome you to Al Azhar. Some might believe that acts of violence have increased recently, but this is not true. Acts of violence were much more than now after the January 25 Revolution (which unseated President Hosni Mubarak in 2011). The state has exerted a lot of effort to contain such deplorable incidents that mainly targeted the Army and the police. It has managed to achieve a lot of success in this regard, especially in Sinai.
Afterwards, such attacks returned in a different form. The Muslim Brotherhood has been planting explosives in several places where people gather for ceremonies. This is an indication that the Muslim Brotherhood is no longer able to mobilise supporters to come out for demonstrations. The explosions are deplorable but they are fewer than before.
It is wrong to say that only extremist thinking is behind such attacks. In the majority of incidents, the perpetrators are not known. Thus, there are lots of possibilities. The reason might be political due to the current dispute between the Muslim Brotherhood and the regime and not because of radical thinking.
The Muslim Brotherhood came to power and then the people ousted it. It is objecting to this through violence. This might be one of the reasons. Another possibility is that there might be foreign interventions that are behind such attacks. Fundamentalist thinking is also one of the possibilities behind this. But it is not the only reason.
A large number of members of the Muslim Brotherhood studied in Al Azhar and their understanding of Islam is influenced by the teachings of Al Azhar scholars. In spite of this, when they joined the world of politics, they tried to apply a version of Islam which is totally different than that propagated by Al Azhar, or so it is said.
A few members of the Muslim Brotherhood and not their leaders studied in Al Azhar. You see, Al Azhar is an educational institution and it is open to all Muslims from Egypt and abroad. We cannot prevent anyone from studying at Al Azhar. All Egyptians have the right to study in Al Azhar just as they have the right to join public education. When we admit students, we do not conduct a research about the history of their families and whether they are members of the Muslim Brotherhood or not.
It is wrong to judge an institution by the way of thinking of its graduates. When a student is brought up in a Muslim Brotherhood family, or in a Salafist family, and he studies in Al Azhar, we cannot expect that his way of thinking would be different from that of his family’s. His immediate environment shapes his way of thinking. He is studying for a few hours in Al Azhar but is staying for the rest of the day with his family. Therefore, that impact is greater on him.
In addition, Muslim Brotherhood families send their sons to study in Al Azhar just to get a certificate from here, so that they would be considered scholars in the society. They tell their sons and daughters that they should go to Al Azhar to learn its teachings but they should not believe in such teachings or apply them. In the meantime, they still hold the Muslim Brotherhood’s way of thinking.
However, you can find out that any Muslim Brotherhood graduate of Al Azhar is less fundamentalist than his family members. If a Muslim Brotherhood student embraced the line of thoughts of Al Azhar, he would be rejected by his own family.
If we look at what is going on in the Middle East, we will find a deplorable situation as in Syria and Iraq. Erdogan in Turkey is trying to restore the Islamic Caliphate. Egypt is looked upon as a country that may be able to restore stability in a Middle East in turmoil. Is that possibleIJ
As a matter of fact, Egypt has survived conspiracies hatched against it. Egypt was at the top of countries targeted to be destroyed in the Middle East. Our enemies know quite well that if Egypt falls, all Arab countries and Islam will fall. Egypt, however, has managed to survive.
As for the current acts of violence in Egypt, any person can carry a bag full of explosives and put it in a garbage bin. They are dispersed incidents. However, the general conditions are stable. People in their villages and workers in their factories are working safely. We do not have internal fighting or civil strife. There is no fighting between the Army and the people or the police and the people. Such individual acts of violence take place in all countries, even in the most secured ones.
Egypt has managed to achieve stability and this has disturbed its enemies. Therefore, they are using elements inside the country, not just Muslim Brotherhood elements, to achieve their goals. They use bad social conditions to do this. We have high unemployment rates among young men. They are looking for a source of income. Our enemies recruit them for money.
I believe that Egypt is capable of achieving this stability in the region on condition that the countries of the region form a common vision regarding conspiracies against Arabs and Muslims. Joint action is also key to this stability. We have to try to solve our internal problems so that our enemies do not use young men as fuel for acts of violence.
As for Turkey, it has its own vision. We do not believe that it has played a neutral role. This is a fact. When the Muslim Brotherhood came into power, Turkey became close to Egypt. After the Muslim Brotherhood was ousted, it turned against Egypt. This is not a direction of a country that wants to achieve stability in the region. It has to respect the will of the Egyptian nation. Turkey has absolute support for the Muslim Brotherhood alone.
Recently, we have watched Muslim scholars on Egyptian TV channels saying stuff like, it is allowed in Islam for a man to beat his wife. In an enlightened country like Egypt that has one of the oldest religious institutions in the world, how can such programmes be broadcastIJ It is not good for the image of Egypt or Al Azhar.
We have a problem in Egypt related to the media. In the age of so-called freedoms, people are using this atmosphere and believe that any person has the right to talk about anything.
In the religious arena, some unqualified persons have intruded into the field of Islamic jurisprudence. They are not well-versed scholars. They have learned just a few facts about Islam and did not study jurisprudence in depth.
The Quran said a man might beat his wife. When an unqualified person talks about this, he gives a shallow interpretation or a wrong one. There are several types of beatings. It might be a light touch or a beating that leads to death. Which type of them is meant by the QuranIJ
In addition, a man may beat his wife, but this is the last stage in a process. As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, (first) admonish them, (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful). But if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). That is what the Quran said.
The reference to beating is a light beating with a tooth brush (a miswak twig, traditionally used by the Arabs to brush their teeth). The beating does not aim at causing pain but it is an indication to the woman that she has crossed the line.
Is there a contradiction between democracy and IslamIJ Many Islamic scholars, as well as scholars of Islamic theology, believe that Islam and democracy cannot coexist. This reminds us of the slogan of the Muslim Brotherhood — “Islam is the solution”. I believe that Islam is not the solution, democracy is the solution.
There is no contradiction between Islam and democracy. The problem is that the followers of each culture want Islam to accept their culture and to legalise it. Those who believe that sexual freedom is a (unrestrained) freedom believe that Islam should accept it and accept homosexuality.
Even in film and television productions, the authors of dramas want Al Azhar to approve what they present. They claim that they have creative thinking and they should be allowed to do anything, even personifying God and saying that He is drinking. Islam does not approve this. And this is the problem.
They are free to do what they like in the sense that Al Azhar does not take any action in court against them. But Al Azhar should tell the people that this is against Islam. There are no absolute freedoms in the world, neither in Turkey, the US nor Germany. There are limits on freedoms and those freedoms differ from one culture to another.
In Al Azhar, we are abiding by what is prescribed by our religion, not by what people want. Islam decided what is useful and what is harmful for human beings. We might believe that adultery, for instance, is useful because adulterers believe that it gives them joy and happiness. However, this is an illusion. Islam looks at it as harmful to health and it is banned by Islam. Some others believe that usury is useful for them because it makes them acquire benefits, but Islam forbids it.
Freedoms in Islam are what is prescribed by Islam and not what people might believe is good for them because Islam ratifies the freedoms that have a real value and are useful to human beings.
Do you have a message for India’s MuslimsIJ We have a problem in India. Saudi Arabia is trying to radicalise young Indian Muslims. In the past, Indian Muslims were not involved in global terrorist violence. They did not join Al Qaeda, for instance. But with the emergence of the Islamic State, 60 or 70 young Indian Muslims have joined this organisation. India has the second largest Muslim community in the world. The number of young men and women who have joined the Islamic State is insignificant, but it has shocked us. Do you have a certain message to Indian Muslims whose ages range between 15 and 30 yearsIJ I ask this because Al Azhar is highly regarded in India and is considered a moderate Islamic institution.
We cannot talk about any other country. They might be teaching a religious curriculum which is different from those of Al Azhar. They have the right to believe that their curriculum is the best.
I would like to address those who are in charge of the education of young men. They should choose the proper curriculum that does not urge young men to embrace radicalism. You have experts who can examine current curriculum, including Al Azhar's curriculum. They should examine the impact of such curriculum on young men to know the proper curriculum to be used.
We have 40,000 foreign Muslim students studying in Al Azhar. We have not received any complaint that any of them is embracing fundamentalist thinking. If they are convinced in India that the curriculum introduced by Al Azhar is a good one, they should apply it there. Since the time of Nasser, we have not received one complaint against even one of the graduates of Al Azhar. This is an unprecedented achievements that could not be achieved by any similar institution in the world.
Therefore, we are recommending educational religious institutions in India to adopt Al Azhar’s curriculum because it introduces moderate Islam. We are ready to cooperate with religious institutions in India to provide them with any required curriculum and technical assistance in this regard.
We are also ready to receive any number of Indian students at Al Azhar to receive proper teachings of Islam and not to depend on the internet or the media to acquire knowledge about Islam.
(The interview was conducted in Arabic through two Cairo-based interpreters who accompanied me. The translation is verified as true to the original Arabic)
(The writer is commissioning editor and commentator at ABP News TV)